Translated excerpts. Full interview is here.

Igor Tsinman is the president and co-founder of AMC Bridge. In 1992, he moved to the United States, and within eight years in the States, he advanced from a developer to a CTO and founded his own company. We talked to Igor about the working format of offices in Ukraine, the bench, why AMC Bridge had to reduce its workforce by 15%, and the prospects of the Ukrainian IT industry.

AMC Bridge is a global IT service company specializing in software development for industries such as engineering, manufacturing, and construction. Currently, the company has five development centers in Ukraine, as well as offices in Poland, India, and Uzbekistan. In total, the company employs nearly 700 professionals.

“When starting your first ‘American’ job, foreign experience doesn’t matter”

What was it like to go from a developer to a co-founder and president of a company in such a short time?

Everyone’s journey is unique. I don’t think mine was exceptionally quick. In America, all sorts of things happen. In a sense, I was fortunate because I got into an industry that was already rapidly growing.

The demand for experts was high, especially those with experience. Those five years of programming in Ukraine proved to be invaluable later on. Certainly, when starting your first “American” job, foreign experience doesn’t matter; if you get hired, you’re just a beginner programmer. But once you’ve worked in the US, everything changes. On the next job, they consider that you haven’t just worked for two years in the States but for two years plus the ones you had before. So, for the second job, they hired me not as a young programmer but with seven or eight years of experience. And that’s a different situation.

I always wanted something different, so I changed jobs quite a bit over almost ten years. Also, the times were different. Ukrainian programmers understand me: from the mid-2000s to 2022–2023, when the industry was rapidly evolving, there were plenty of job opportunities, and companies were competing for talent.

In 2000, I was the CTO in a relatively small startup. That was when the dot-com bust crisis happened, the first major restructuring of the Internet. Our startup was running out of money, and my then-CEO encouraged me to start my own business. To help that startup, he gave me the opportunity to create a company with friends from Ukraine. I reached out to those I knew personally and had worked with. So, with three other people, we began working using an outsourcing model.

—I read that your role in attracting the first clients was important...

Yes, since I had worked in several companies already, I had managed to establish personal connections. Due to that, we were able to conclude our first contracts. It’s a typical story, nothing unique. Then it becomes a matter of the quality of work: if you perform well and people enjoy working with you, they recommend you. People you know move from one company to another, create new ones, and they bring you in. That’s how we initially operated—through referrals from one point to another, from one company to another.

“I won’t boast and claim that we were prepared, that we had foresight”

—It’s interesting to compare how the company has grown in just over 20 years. How many employees and offices did AMC Bridge have before 2022, before the start of the full-scale war?

A little over 750 people. Five development offices in Ukraine and one in Poland, although it was mostly sales-oriented. In 2022, we continued growing steadily.

—Many companies have already shared if they were prepared for a possible full-scale invasion. How was it for you? And what were your first steps in February 2022?

I won’t boast and claim that we were prepared, that we had foresight... Honestly, we hoped for the best. Surely, we had some groundwork called a contingency plan. But a full-scale war is something entirely different.

Our Sumy office suffered the most: many team members had to relocate as some locations in the Sumy region came under occupation. The Dnipro office was somewhat less affected. In the first weeks of the full-scale war, we urged people to evacuate and assisted with it. There were many local initiatives—from purchasing food and setting up offices where people could stay overnight when traveling from east to west to communicating with local administrations to find safe routes, and so on. We reacted based on the situation.

Fortunately, our previous experience with COVID-19 was very helpful. During the pandemic, we had to move everything to the “cloud,” minimizing dependence on physical offices—starting in 2020, the company was practically working remotely. Such infrastructure proved to be critically important for restoring working capacity after February 24, 2022, allowing us to do it very quickly. Three weeks later, in the second half of March, the company worked, if not at 100%, then very close to it. Then we strengthened that entire infrastructure: bought generators, Starlink, and so on.

“Officially, we didn’t declare any moratoriums, but in reality, we didn’t let anyone go in the first year”

—Some IT companies had a moratorium on layoffs in the first few months; others, on the contrary, had to reduce their staff. How did things go for you?

Officially, we didn’t declare any moratoriums, but essentially, yes, we didn’t let anyone go in the first year. The necessary steps we took in the second quarter of 2023, starting from April, were evident earlier, but we held off until the budget allowed. At some point, we had to let some team members go, which was very hard but necessary. Otherwise, the company wouldn’t have survived.

—What was the percentage of people you had to lay off in April?

We had to lay off approximately 15% of the workforce.

—What were the main reasons, factors associated with layoffs—the full-scale war or the global recession in general?

The war, of course, had an impact. However, we finished 2022 quite positively; we even grew. Generally, I would highlight three main factors. The first one is the global economic factor, the expectation of a recession. Indeed, it happened in the global IT industry. Google, Microsoft, Amazon, Facebook reduced their staff. But it is the tip of the iceberg. Sometimes, the crucial thing is not the recession itself but its anticipation and uncertainty when the market freezes, thinking, “Will there be a recession or not? Should we start a project or not? Should we invest there or not? Maybe we should wait? Let’s think for another three months.” This slowdown affects investments and researching development, which is a significant part of the budget for companies like ours. Consequently, there’s a rollback, and our projects are either postponed, reduced, or completely halted.

The next factor is inflation. After my discussions with colleagues, I can conclude that its impact is underestimated. It is inflation that led to the reassessment, reorientation of investment flows, particularly to the cooling down of the startup market, which is an essential part of our client base. It’s a very dynamic market that reacts quickly to everything. So, we immediately saw a shift from “Let’s go! Capture more market!” to “Where’s our profit? Show us a list of paying clients!” and so on.

Regarding Ukraine, an important factor is not only the war but also understanding that the war won’t end quickly. In 2022, many thought it would end soon: “Just three months and everything will be fine,” “Five months...,” “Seven...”. By the beginning of 2023, it became clear that it wouldn’t end quickly. So, I believe these three factors, acting simultaneously, led to a sharp slowdown in the market climate and the consequences felt by the IT sector.

“It’s easier to talk to candidates as the market has cooled off a bit”

—How has the bench situation evolved over the past year and a half? How much has it increased?

It has increased significantly. So, by April, we realized that we would have to say goodbye to people: we didn’t see any opportunity to provide them with work in the near future or keep them in reserve.

—For some companies, the bench during the full-scale war has become a record high for their entire existence. Is it the same for you?

It was the same until the layoffs in April. Now—no.

—What happened to hiring at the company during this time?

These are two incompatible things: when you downsize, you usually don’t hire. Certainly, sometimes a person leaves or relocates on their own, and you need to replace them—then, there’s some minor local hiring. Targeted recruitment was put on hold. We hope to return to a dynamic market state—and then, obviously, the process will resume as soon as we need specialists we don’t have.

But, as I mentioned, we have a bench and will use it first. Currently, there are those specialists in reserve who will be needed when the slowdown stops and the market picks up again (maybe it has already started, but not significantly yet). When clients come and ask for projects, it’s easier to start them with prepared employees.

In the last year and a half, we realized that we need to accelerate our global strategy. The office in Poland was opened at the end of 2021–early 2022. In the middle of 2022, we established two more offices in Asia—in Uzbekistan and India. To create a minimal group of people ready to develop them, we needed to hire. In Uzbekistan, we have already assembled a team and stopped hiring until further growth. In India, the creation of a core team for office development is just finishing.

—Even if it’s local, hiring is still ongoing. Have you noticed any qualitative changes in the context of candidates in Ukraine, considering the number of new people in the market?

It seems to me that it’s easier to talk to candidates as the market has cooled off a bit. People respond, come for interviews. After all, we all remember those golden times for a programmer when half of the specialists simply didn’t show up for an interview because, by that time, they had either found a job or received a sufficient salary increase at their job not to look for a new one. Now, the situation is different. It’s hard for me to judge the quality since I’m a bit removed from these processes and more focused on business development and sales. But according to reports, it has become easier to communicate with people.

“I assume that a full return to offices will not happen”

—Are there only local employees at your offices in India and Uzbekistan, or are there also employees from Ukraine?

There are only local employees there. In Poland, most employees are those who left Ukraine due to the full-scale war. 

—What is the situation with the Ukrainian offices, and in what format are they currently operating?

They are all open. Certainly, the physical space was reduced during the COVID-19 epidemic. Currently, the offices operate in a hybrid mode. You can come there to work and have tea with cookies if you wish or need.

In addition, offices guarantee uninterrupted work during blackouts. They are equipped with everything necessary to work autonomously, ensuring that projects do not lag. It is one of the concerns clients express. They want to work with us, but, of course, considering the news from Ukraine, they worry if it will be possible to get a consultation, carry out a new project installation, and so on. So, on the one hand, we strengthen the material base of locations for those who live nearby. On the other hand, we add people from other offices to projects to have a backup in case of force majeure.

—Do you plan to return to offline work in the western part of Ukraine? If so, under what conditions?

Observing the experience of the American IT market (it’s hard for me to say about the European one), I assume that a full return to offices will not happen. Currently, 50% of office spaces in the USA are empty. People go there at most two or three times a week, and sometimes a month. It all depends on the position, team connections, and the company itself.

Working from the office has its advantages and disadvantages. I think, evolutionarily, a golden mean will be found. At the moment, we have no plans for a full restoration of office capabilities that existed before the pandemic. I visited all our locations in 2020 and recently visited offices in Wroclaw, Dnipro, Khmelnytskyi, Chernivtsi, Lviv, and had an online conversation with team members from the Sumy region. Now, these are very compact, technology-rich spaces. And still, the areas we have today are not fully utilized.

—Do offices in other countries operate in the same format?

In Poland—yes. In India and Uzbekistan, there are their own peculiarities. In India, people not living in large cities where we opened offices are mostly ready to relocate and work from the office. Perhaps it is related to the conditions for remote work. In general, we already know that online and offline work can be both productive and unproductive—it all depends on how it is organized. We are quite flexible and ready to respond to market conditions and demands.

“In such situation as ours, people show even more sensitivity”

—Were there many among your clients for whom corporate policy did not allow further working in Ukraine? How did you resolve this issue?

I can’t say if it’s corporate policy. But we have clients who, after the start of the full-scale war, essentially demanded relocating people from Ukraine. They stated that otherwise, they would be forced to lay them off. Such ultimatums were not with a “by tomorrow” condition but with a set term, let’s say three or six months. What we could do, we did, and what we couldn’t, we lost. Unfortunately, it happened with one of our major clients: we lost a significant number of positions because their board of directors said that the risks associated with doing business in a war zone outweighed the benefits of working with us. But it wasn’t widespread.

More widespread is what I mentioned earlier: concerns and requests for backup, alternative options in case of the situation deterioration, or, for example, a blackout.

— How much more challenging is it to ‘sell’ Ukrainian teams to new clients?

It’s more challenging. Generally, clients are well-behaved people; they don’t say things outright. But judging from our figures, the success rate is lower, meaning it has become harder to conclude new contracts. And I partly attribute it to the risks associated with the situation in Ukraine. It’s not 100%; you can’t understand it as if the “gates are closed, and that’s it.” Especially in our case. We offer a specialized service, we are known and liked. However, businesses have their interests and assess risks. I suspect that during peacetime, we would have won some of the contracts we lost.

Sometimes, clients agree to exchange risks for the price. It means, “If there were no risks, your price would be this, but since you have risks, the price has to be lower for us to explain our desire to work with you to the board or executives.” Such facts are not easy to quantify because the reasons for refusal are rarely stated directly. Usually, they phrase it as, “Thank you, we’ve decided to think it over.” And in such a delicate situation as ours, people understand that it’s a tough decision for everyone, so they show even more sensitivity.

—Were there new clients who came specifically to support Ukraine? 

There were cases when, during discussions, it turned out that our employees were in Ukraine, and we received strong emotional support. Certainly, all the people we work with support the Ukrainian struggle; they are, so to speak, on the right side. But there are (and nothing can be done here) business interests: large corporations do not want, cannot take risks, and small ones—even more so. For example, if a startup’s product production fails, the startup can essentially go up in smoke. So yes, there are people who support us. But most are cautious. And it’s hard to blame them in such a situation.

“I won’t paint the situation very optimistically—it’s still serious but significantly better than it was”

—You’ve already touched on this topic a bit, but could you tell us more about what 2022 was for AMC Bridge in terms of business metrics? What about the current year?

We finished 2022 with growth. Nevertheless, there were certain warning bells that the situation might worsen. We had a fairly large portion of projects that were closing or ones that we were losing. However, perhaps due to momentum, the number of new projects exceeded the number of closed ones till the fourth quarter of 2022. It was a 10–15% growth, which is quite good given the full-scale war conditions.

2023 started tough. In the first and especially the second quarters, closed projects outnumbered new ones. And it resulted in a significant revenue decline, which continues, but at a much slower pace now. In the third quarter, we saw signs of stabilization. We hope that it will indeed happen by the end of the year, and maybe we’ll return to growth in 2024. I won’t paint the situation very optimistically—it’s still serious but significantly better than it was.

—Are there maybe other key moments that happened in the company during the full-scale war?

War is war, but the company has certain strategic goals—our benchmark. Of course, the tactics to achieve them change. Over the last two years, we have significantly expanded the geography of clients and opened sales offices in Europe and Asia. If 99% of our revenue came from America a few years ago, now 25% comes from Europe and Asia.

We dive deeper into construction tech—technologies used in construction. It’s a vast, untouched field that technologically lags behind manufacturing and engineering, especially in terms of digitization and automation. However, this direction is rapidly developing now. So, we try to enter there through startups and former clients who have transitioned into construction tech.

“80% of our company’s donations come from employees”

—In your opinion, how has the Ukrainian part of the team been feeling over the past one and a half years?

I recently returned from Ukraine, where I visited almost all our offices and spoke with a part of the team. The resilient and generally positive mood of employees is inspiring. They are ready to work and adapt to the situation. Certainly, there is anxiety and uncertainty that continues to put pressure on them. We all hope that the war will end with Ukraine’s victory, but when it will end remains a very serious question, as before. No one knows.

I hope we will live up to the team’s expectations regarding new projects and clients. Everything else is beyond our control. We will react according to the situation. During the meetings, I tried to explain what, how, and why we do to ensure a common understanding of the company’s direction, strategic goals, tactical decisions, and changes. It seems to me that this dialog was meaningful both for the management outside Ukraine responsible for the strategic development of the business and for the Ukrainian team, which forms the backbone of the company. And it will be the case for many years to come.

—Some of the Ukrainian team members have left. But the majority remain in Ukraine, don’t they?

Yes, about 90% are physically in Ukraine. If we also count those who left but actually remain in the Ukrainian team—97%.

—Do you have employees who serve in the Armed Forces of Ukraine?

Yes, sure. They continue to receive financial support, and their positions have been reserved. Not literally, of course. Other team members cover project positions, but when the specialists demobilize, they will be able to return to work. Two teammates have already returned: one is working, and the other one cannot do that yet due to health reasons.

—Your company’s website has information about supporting the Ukrainian military. Could you briefly tell us about it?

After the full-scale invasion, the company activated an internal volunteer channel. Here, all team members can announce fundraising for their relatives and friends, units, or organizations they trust. The company consistently financially contributes to initiatives and fundraising from employees. Requests may concern both civilian and military needs, assistance to medical institutions, and so on. The majority of employees’ requests (90–95%) are related to the needs of the military, while some fundraisers were for the needs of civilians affected by the war, particularly in the de-occupied territories.

The level of individual help from people is particularly impressive and inspiring. AMC Bridge participates as a company, but 80% of our donations come from the employees themselves. We allocate money from the company’s revenue to various projects. There is a small coordination council that decides where and how to spend these funds. The total amount of donations is over $1.5 million.

“The question of exiting the Ukrainian market is not on the table at all—it’s even funny to talk about”

—Has the company’s development vector changed?

No. Our strategic goal is to become a consulting company and significantly reduce pure outsourcing from which we started. That is, to reach a level where we solve clients’ business problems with technical expertise. There are already some successes in this direction—we have diversified the client base. We are increasingly serving not only technology companies but also those in construction and manufacturing. We are moving towards an approximate 50-50 ratio.

—Hiring in Ukraine is currently on hold. But do you plan to expand in the future?

Certainly, unfortunately, it’s challenging to make plans beyond three–four months.

I don’t think anything will change before the New Year. We will continue to work as we worked. We have a bench with which we can quickly cover client requirements. As soon as we see growth and a bench decrease, we will undoubtedly resume recruitment, primarily in Ukraine.

I would like to emphasize once again that the Ukrainian team is the backbone of AMC Bridge. It was, is, and, I believe, will be for many years, despite our efforts to expand and diversify, which is necessary for successful business development. The question of exiting the Ukrainian market is not on the table at all—it’s even funny to talk about.

—In your opinion, what are the prospects for the development of the Ukrainian IT industry?

Ukrainian IT has proven itself to be a market with high-quality service and skilled professionals. One should try hard to significantly tarnish this reputation.

At the same time, in recent years, the Ukrainian IT market has gained another reputation—as relatively saturated and expensive compared to other locations. Especially in comparison with India, Vietnam, Malaysia, where there are many people who also want to earn in this field. Moreover, the level of education is increasing. So, the Ukrainian market is very high-quality but also quite expensive and challenging in terms of hiring. Creating a large team in Ukraine quickly is difficult because there is significant competition, and the price to pay is high.

Currently, certain factors come into play, including the hype around AI and what this technology can do in the programming sphere. It is entirely possible that simple jobs will be automated. Therefore, I believe that the perspective of the Ukrainian market is specialization. It’s necessary to find niches where unique knowledge and skills will be valued. And in the market of, let’s say, relatively simple programming, Ukraine will find it challenging to compete. And it is an objective trend, irrespective of the war. A demographic trend, if you will. There haven’t been and aren’t many young people in Ukraine, so the market growth is limited. I have held this opinion for several years now.

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